The following interview is with journalist Louisa Lim ahead of the Sydney Writers’ Festival. Lim is an award-winning journalist, academic and author renowned for her in-depth reporting on China and Hong Kong. Raised in Hong Kong, she has carved an astounding career as a former correspondent for the BBC and NPR, dedicating over a decade on covering the shifting political and social landscapes of the region. Her books — Indelible City: Dispossession and Defiance in Hong Kong and The People’s Republic of Amnesia: Tiananmen Revisited — blend rigorous journalism with deeply personal storytelling, confronting state control, historical erasure, and the fight for identity. In this conversation, she discusses with me her book Indelible City, the stripping of Hong Kong’s democratic rights, China’s global impact and the future of Hong Kong identity.
Hong Kong has been colonised by the British for over 156 years, which is longer than their direct colonial ruling of Australia. Hong Kong was handed back to China as a region to be self-governed by Hong Kong people in 1997, supposedly for the next 50 years. Its people have since retained their democratic values while China underhandedly strips them.
It is viewed by the Hong Kong people that the Chinese government threatens the differences in their cultural identity through erasure of history, language and cultural landmarks. It is because of this that many Hong Kong people do not identify as Chinese.
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Anonymous: I want to say that when I first picked up your book in a little second-hand bookstore, I instinctively tried to determine whether or not the book was written in a pro-British or pro-Beijing perspective. This was before I knew about you, of course but it was quite startling that I never considered that third option of Hong Kong’s own voice. So, thank you so much for writing such an incredible and necessary book for us.
In Indelible City, you explore Hong Kong’s identity through artists symbolic to Hong Kong’s voice. How did working on the book change your own sense of identity? Tell us a little bit about yourself.
Louisa: My mother is from the UK and my father is from Singapore of Chinese origin. He got a job in Hong Kong when I was about five, and he was employed as an expat. He was in this very weird situation of being an ethnically Chinese expat. I came from a biracial background, and I think that um that was tricky at that time and particularly with that mixture, there were many white men with Chinese wives in Hong Kong, but the other way around was seen as much more transgressive.
I always had a bit of a question mark about my identity and neither of my parents are native Hong Kongers. They both speak terrible Cantonese. And so, for me, this book was also an exploration of my identity as a Hong Konger. Could I call myself a Hong Konger despite not being a native Hong Konger? Despite not speaking Cantonese, which I think is a real mark of Hong Kongness and being able to participate sort of fully in Hong Kong culture? And, you know, I think it’s a question that I asked myself many times and I also felt a real sense of [questioning]: Am I really the person to write this book?
But then, I know that there were many other people like me. There are many other people who call Hong Kong home, who don’t even have Chinese parents, and some have never even lived in Hong Kong, but have Hong Konger parents.
I met one woman at a book reading, who said to me that she saw herself as a Hong Konger, even though she had never been to Hong Kong because both of her parents were Hong Kongers. So, you know, I think for me writing it was also that exploration of what it means to be a Hong Konger.
A: Yeah, you’re absolutely right. I have never lived in the city, but I also call myself a Hong Konger because I’ve grown up in that culture, raised by two beautiful Hong Kong parents and well to me, you absolutely do qualify as a Hong Konger because you were raised there. In your book, you mentioned that you grew up with a British style education in Hong Kong. It was at a time where kids were systemically taught to value British culture and language whilst reducing Hong Kong culture and Cantonese language as lower class.
Now education in Hong Kong is state sanctioned history, set by Beijing and prizes Mandarin. There is risk associated with questioning that history. How does historical erasure or censorship shape the identity of Hong Kongers, especially the next generation?
L: I mean that’s a really good question. You know, we are seeing that historical erasure in front of our eyes. We see it as books disappear from library shelves. It’s happening overnight: the disappearance of the entire archive of Apple daily, the most popular pro-democracy newspaper [in Hong Kong], from the internet. That was just, for me, a stunning, shattering moment because as a journalist, you think that your work has value. Then one day an entire archive can vanish just like that. So, we are seeing that historical erasure happening. And I think historical erasure absolutely shapes the identity that people have.
I guess nowadays, there’s also a question about what kind of identity people who live in Hong Kong are allowed to have because the expression of Hong Konger identity is now, more or less, prohibited under the National Security Act. The National Security legislation, which is being rolled out bit by bit and, even yesterday, more new draconian clauses and laws were announced. I think they are [purposely] quite vague, so that almost any act of extolling Hong Kong identity distinct and separate from China could now carry risks.
So we’re seeing that bifurcation of identities, where Hong Kongers who lived in Hong Kong who then moved overseas have got a very strong Hong Kong identity. Whilst if you were to start primary school today in Hong Kong, all your textbooks would be telling a very different kind of Hong Kong identity.
I think identity, it can be both top down and bottom up, but I think what the Chinese have tried to do is remove that kind of self-construction component and change the identity that is being sort of imposed on Hong Kong as into, you know, Hong Kong as part of China and only ever as part of China for its entire history.
A: Yeah, you mentioned a book that you picked up for your kids and how they’ve completely changed the narrative.
L: Sorry I want to just say it wasn’t [just] a book that I picked up for my kids, it’s the book that is taught in Chinese schools all over the world, including in Australia.
They were at the Xin Jin Shan Chinese school, which isn’t [a small institution], they’re all over Melbourne. There’s a lot of them and they’re probably all over Sydney too. It reaches globally because when we lived in the US, in Michigan, and they were actually learning from those same textbooks.
So these are textbooks which are designed for overseas Chinese to learn mandarin. But that propaganda work is starting early, right? It’s starting the kids at six or seven.
A: I think that is going to play a huge role for the next generation, who will represent countries like Australia internationally in politics regarding China as well as in the court of law.
Just this month we have seen Washington based activist Anna Kwok targeted, and her father and brother arrested. She is one of 19 overseas activists wanted by national security police with a bounty. Why should China’s censorship and narrative control matter to Australians, or just internationally?
L: It matters internationally because National Security Laws are extraterritorial so theoretically, they apply anywhere in the world. It’s a challenge to our freedoms here in Australia and it’s a challenge that’s played out in all kinds of ways.
If you take part in Hong Kong activities here in Melbourne, there are shady people who sometimes come along who wear masks and sunglasses and record all the proceedings. Who knows who they are, but it feels like an act of intimidation, and I think it is enough to scare certain audience members. That’s something that’s actually happened to me at an event at Melbourne University.
In classrooms as well, you know, there’s almost like a policing of speech when it comes to matters to do with Hong Kong, China and Taiwan, you know, whereby [pro-CCP] mainland students sometimes lodge complaints about lecturers for the language that they use in lectures. This is not something that’s happened to me, but it’s happened to a lot of people that I know. And that’s a threat because effectively what the Chinese [government] are trying to do is narrow the boundaries, narrow our freedoms to discuss Hong Kong, and Hong Kong identity openly. I think that’s really dangerous.
Obviously, when it comes to these bounties that are placed on Hong Kongers in Australia, people like Ted Hui and Kevin Yam, lawyers who are very law-abiding citizens, it also comes with these acts of intimidation. Here in Melbourne, there was a batch of letters that got sent to people telling them, basically to dob in Kevin. These are acts of intimidation mainly meant for Hong Kongers to show who is in control and to show them that even overseas, they’re being watched. They’re being policed, and that there are consequences for saying or doing things that the Communist Party does not like.
A: That narrative control extends to Western countries, like how news here in Australia broadcasted the protest in Hong Kong. I thought they didn’t really do it justice and that they didn’t really have all the necessary information. Comparatively, how you presented it in your book was different to how even the ABC presented it. There was a lot of truth missing that was covered in your book Indelible City.
L: I mean to be fair, Hong Kong’s history is quite complicated, and I think a lot of journalists who covered it were sort of parachuted in and didn’t necessarily have enough background. But, I also think that around 2019, there was a massive disinformation campaign on Twitter, on Facebook, on YouTube that really painted the protesters as rioters. I think that language is really key.
Nowadays, I often hear people talking about Hong Kong protesters as rioters, even if they’re not particularly interested. They’re just mentioning it offhand because that perception that these were riots or counterrevolutionary riots in the mold of Tiananmen, was what [the Chinese government] were trying to do with that massive campaign. I think it was really, really successful.
It was easy to showcase [without context], that sort of horrendous footage of that man who was set on fire, things like that and people throwing Molotov cocktails. But I think all of that is part of quite a successful campaign of changing the narrative both inside China and outside.
A: Starting from Trump’s administration, he threatened TikTok’s existence and as a form of rebellion, masses of Americans downloaded red note, that is, a Chinese social media and e-commerce platform. Most recently, we’ve seen a growing media shift towards China viewing them as the underdog, as people have sided against America in the tariff wars and against Trump’s fascism.
What do you think about this media shift that glorifies China?
L: I think it’s misguided and it’s dangerous. It’s that kind of real binary that either you’re pro-US or pro-China. It’s equating China with the Communist party, which is not necessarily [true], technically speaking they’re separate.
But I think Chinese netizens are funny, they’re clever, they’re good at using AI, and I think that was why it was successful. Just at that time, there were a couple of really, really popular Chinese videos that went viral worldwide and everybody was like, ‘oh, but Chinese people are funny too’.
A: Like it was the first time they’d discovered that we had personalities, wow.
[Louisa laughs enthusiastically]
L: I think it made Xiao Honshu (Rednote) seem less threatening, that it was, ‘oh, they’re just like us’. But in fact, the space that Rednote provides for discussion is, again, really constrained, especially if you’re going to talk about Uyghurs or Tibetans or Hong Kongers, you’re not going to find that your posts survive. So from TikTok to Rednote is… yeah, it’s not great.
A: Western historians don’t often differentiate between Chinese and Hong Kongers although a majority would not identify as Chinese, as seen in the 2020 [Hong Kong] census. Notable examples are Chinatown communities around the world that were built up by early Hong Kong migrants and reflect the cultural aspects of Hong Kong. Without this acknowledgement, we often don’t tie it to our history.
How do we then build our own identity so that our culture is not lost, especially now that so many of us live overseas?
L: I mean, it’s difficult, because in Hong Kong — there are not so many Hong Kongers now, but I also think that the way that Hong Kongers have moved overseas in large numbers and sort of settled in quite concentrated areas, does mean that we are getting these little pockets of Hong Kong that are springing up in other places all over the world. That sense of community is really important. Here in Melbourne, there are quite a lot of events that are organised. There was a Luna New Year fair that was held in this massive hall, and it was insanely like Hong Kong! It was so crowded, and everybody was shouting and eating fishballs! It was like being on the MTR, apart from people eating. They have traditional Chinese book fairs and there are new programs springing up for Cantonese story time for kids and stuff like that. So, we are seeing that, but it has to be a really conscious effort I think.
I was really interested to see today they announced that Hong Kong communities around the world will mark June the 4th [for the Tiananmen Square massacre]. They were announcing dozens of cities where it would happen, and I think that is also an important part of Hong Kong identity. But not just that, I think we’re also seeing lots of new Hong Kong restaurants opening up, all over the place and that’s really good! It’s a really visual reminder to people that Hong Kongers are Hong Kongers and that they’re different.
A: There’s definitely been a swell of Hong Kong content on Instagram and a welcome rise of Hong Kong restaurants in Sydney. There’s more than a handful now and I hope you do try them out when you come here for the Sydney Writers’ Festival.
When the National Security Law first was announced in 2020, you and your cohort of PhD students at University of Melbourne ceased all research. Have you guys since gone back to doing that research?
L: Yeah, I think most of us, because we were all doing PhDs that were connected to Hong Kong identity. So, it was a Hong Kong identity reading group and there were several months where it was really hard. I think for people who come from Hong Kong, and whose family is still in Hong Kong, it was even harder because they suddenly seemed as if the very thing they were researching was disappearing in front of us.
And, you know, actually for academics studying Hong Kong, it’s really tricky now if you’re from Hong Kong and you put out an academic work which is political in nature, you often have to embargo it so nobody can read it, and then you can’t publish and then you don’t have any publications, so it’s really hard to progress in your career.
You know, people are even kind of penalised for studying Hong Kong because they’re told, well, there’s no future in studying this field. So I think that was part of that kind of existential crisis that we felt: that the thing we were studying was disappearing, but also that possibility of the academic field was also vanishing.
The only reason why I could write my book was because I don’t have parents who live in Hong Kong anymore, so I can write it. I can decide that I will not go back and I can do everything that I can, to try to ensure that people won’t be affected or damaged by my book. But I think if you have a large family still in Hong Kong, then it’s a really different calculus. So, most of our group now have PhDs, but some have jobs, some don’t. I think it’s still an open question what the future of Hong Kong studies is.
A: Are there any plans for a future book and if so, what would you be writing that on?
L: I’m writing another book. It’s a family history book, but it also has a sort of archival historical component, which is wider than my family story. That’s all I’m going to say at the moment.
Also I don’t know if you know, but I did a podcast for ABC called The King of Kowloon. It’s not the same as the book, but it’s based on the book. It has incredible sound design that was done by the amazing Russell Stapleton, and we really tried to recreate an audio of Hong Kong. We literally by the time we made it, I couldn’t go back, but we sent someone all over Hong Kong, even going on specific bus routes and to try and get them.
A: I’m a person who gets emotional from the sound of MTR beeps, and the pedestrians crossing sounds.
L: I get emotional as well yeah. There’s a lot of those zebra crossing sounds and when it came out, I got a lot of messages from people who said: ‘it made me cry’! So, if you listen, be warned!
A: I’m a crier, so I will be expecting that. Was there anything that you didn’t include in your book?
L: There was a lot that I had to take out. There were a lot of interviews with people that I’d done over the years and some of them had even appeared in other places. You know, I’d written about them in newspaper articles, or they’d appeared on the Little Red Podcast.
And then when it got to publication time because of the National Security Law, they asked me not to use anything related to them. Some were quite prominent people as well. So, there was quite a lot that I had to take out because some people asked me to take stuff out, and in other cases I just decided that the risk was too high. Those are the things that I didn’t include.
A: One for the student readers, a clickbait title, if I’m honest: If Murdoch media went up against China’s political influence on global censorship in a boxing match, who do you think would win or who would you want to win?
[Louisa pauses here for a really long time, possibly to judge my ridiculous question.]
L: I absolutely would not back either Murdoch Media or the Chinese media! There must be other choices! We must make sure that the other choices survive and thrive because we cannot be left with those choices!
A: Good response.
[We both laugh here, perhaps a little nervously as we consider the future of our careers]
A: Well thank you for your incredible book Indelible City I haven’t found anything quite as comprehensive on Hong Kong at all, it reads like a love letter.
L: I really appreciate it, the time that you took to prepare for this and the really thoughtful questions that you asked!
You can catch more of Louisa Lim at the Sydney Writers’ Festival on the 23rd and 24th of May. She also hosts several award-winning podcasts including The Little Red Podcast, The Masterclass Podcast, and The King of Kowloon.
